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HVAC-ology
Welcome to "HVAC-ology," your podcast for all things related to commercial HVAC systems! Whether you're an experienced technician, an HVAC engineer, a curious business owner, or simply someone interested in understanding the parts and pieces of HVAC systems, this podcast is perfect for you.
In each episode, our expert hosts and enthusiasts delve into the complex world of commercial heating, ventilation, and air conditioning (HVAC). We cover everything from the latest equipment technology advancements to practical tips.
Music credits: "Bring Me Back" by Deleveled (instrumental for intro and with lyrics for outtro).
HVAC-ology
HVACOLOGY Talks to Daikin about R32: The Future of Refrigerants
The refrigerants powering our air conditioning systems are undergoing a major transition, and understanding this shift is crucial for anyone involved in the HVAC industry. In this episode, we explore the fascinating world of R32 refrigerant with Daikin Applied experts Sharon Haeg and Rob Landes, who break down complex concepts into practical knowledge you can use.
Remember R22? Then R410A? Now we're moving to lower global warming potential (GWP) alternatives, with R32 emerging as a leading solution. Sharon and Rob explain why these transitions matter, dispelling myths about A2L refrigerants along the way.
Perhaps most valuable is their practical explanation of A2L refrigerant safety. The "low flammability" designation often raises concerns, but as Sharon memorably puts it, "you can walk faster than the flame travels." This conversation covers what technicians, building owners, and contractors need to know about working with these next-generation refrigerants, including equipment considerations, building design implications, and tools needed for safe handling.
We also explore the fascinating relationship between refrigerant choice and decarbonization efforts. Rob explains how efficiency gains from R32 systems have significant environmental benefits, especially while our electrical grid remains partially powered by fossil fuels. Efficiency isn't just about monthly utility bills – it's a critical component of sustainable HVAC solutions.
Whether you're a seasoned HVAC professional or simply curious about the technology keeping your spaces comfortable, this episode delivers valuable insights into the future of cooling technology. Subscribe to keep learning as we explore the many facets of HVAC through conversations with the industry's most knowledgeable voices.
Please be sure to subscribe to our podcast and share with anyone who might be interested!
Welcome to the HVACology Experience where we talk about all things HVAC industry, topics that are so hot, they are cool.
Speaker 3:Hi, good day to you, Kelly Patterson. How are you?
Speaker 1:I am fabulously wonderful. Kelly Patterson, how are you?
Speaker 3:I am fabulously wonderful, Ryan Hudson. How are you? I'm doing?
Speaker 1:wonderful, other than one thing Tell me what it is.
Speaker 3:As we are sliding over and we have sprung forward, I am noticing that we have this amazing ability in our household to collect clutter. I don't know what it is, but like I have so much stuff everywhere, and as the guy that fixes cars and replaces toilets and does all those things, I always say to myself I'm going to need that one day, and so I'd never, let go of anything.
Speaker 1:You got to change that. It's time.
Speaker 3:Are you a declutter person? Are you?
Speaker 1:I am a huge declutter person huge, and my husband is like you, but he keeps all of the things. We have a shed in the back Actually, we have three sheds where he keeps all of the things that he can't part with but he has now decided that I am on the right path and he is becoming a declutterer.
Speaker 3:So you have three buildings in the back of your house, for me too, okay. So it doesn't sound like you sound like you, still have stuff. It's just I don't, I don't.
Speaker 1:Okay, I don't. My husband has a shed for car parts and a shed for woodworking. You know all of those things, yeah, yeah, I highly recommend decluttering.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I got to do it, I just got. I got to throw stuff away or recycle, that'd be nice, or maybe, uh, or gift them to someone. You see my kids at the age that there are right now I've thinking to myself, okay, they could probably take that and use that One day.
Speaker 1:Yeah 12 years from now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I probably should actually ask them if they want it, rather than just assume that they want it.
Speaker 1:Man Start there, start there and then start getting rid of it.
Speaker 3:Kelly, you know, this HVACology podcast sounds like therapy for me.
Speaker 1:I think we do go over a few of your things here and there, yeah that's right.
Speaker 3:You know, I am very excited about today's podcast.
Speaker 1:As am.
Speaker 3:I, and the reason why is is because in our industry the conversation of R32 is huge and I'm very excited to have with us today Sharon Haig and Rob Landis from Daikin Applied. Did I get your names right?
Speaker 5:Yeah, you did.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's a success story. I love it.
Speaker 1:We can end it here. No, I'm kidding, let's keep going, we're done here.
Speaker 3:Okay, let's a success story. I love it. We can end it here. No, I'm kidding, let's keep going. We're done here, okay, let's keep going.
Speaker 3:So, before we get into the wonderful world of R32, sharon Rob, I would love to hear how in the world you got from high school to where you are at today, because, as we said beforehand, nobody is sitting in 10th grade Spanish class saying to themselves man, I would really mucho like to be in HVAC one day. So how in the world did you get to HVAC and where you're at today?
Speaker 5:Sharon, you first.
Speaker 4:Me first. All right. Well, I was probably a little different in that I always knew I wanted to be an engineer, so there's a lot of them in my family. So I grew up tinkering and pulling things apart and having a lot of fun on that front.
Speaker 4:Heat transfer fluids classes that most people maybe don't gravitate towards, but I very much enjoyed those. My heat transfer professor ran a summer program for undergraduate students and what we did is we synced up with the building guys on the university campus and we got to figure out how the central plant worked, how all the mechanical systems supported the classrooms, the different projects they had going on, some of the things they'd look at with utilities and building improvements, stuff like that, and take all of the things we were learning and turn them into problems to supplement the textbook in the thermodynamics class. So I had such a great time that summer just working with the building staff understanding how all these things worked that you maybe don't think about when you're going to class every day, but just found it really interesting learning from all of these mostly gentlemen that had been doing this for so long and all their stories and you know some of the hurdles that they'd overcome. Things'd run into that. It just was really interesting to me and, yeah, it kind of launched me into um working with buildings.
Speaker 3:So, Sharon, you, you brought up a good point. You know, there you could study all you want, but when you physically see it and touch it, and like you're in it. That's when you can kind of fall in love with something. I love that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, I was, it was really awesome. Yeah, it was a great time Very cool.
Speaker 5:Rob, yeah, so I was born into HVAC maybe unfortunately, so I'm a third-generation HVAC person, so my grandfather and dad were both in HVAC. My grandfather and dad were both in HVAC, so Sunday dinners were interesting because there was always some talk about undersized duct work or dead animals in a crawl space, and so from the time I was little, I never really questioned that I was going to do something with HVAC. I of course had aspirations, like every child of maybe one day I'll be an astronaut or something more interesting sounding. But yeah, I didn't escape the family legacy of HVAC. But, with all of that being a little bit tongue-in-cheek, it's a lot of opportunity and a lot of interesting intersections that you can run into, where you find the intersection of different fields that maybe you wouldn't have thought go together, and so I've found HVAC to be a very rewarding path.
Speaker 3:You know, rob, you also hit on. A great point too is that I've never interviewed anyone on this podcast where they're like I don't think this is interesting because it's crazy. The nuances of our industry. That gets into everything from comfort cooling to these insane process solutions. So it's all over the map and anybody that's kind of got a questioning, inquiring mind can really find a home here in the HVAC industry.
Speaker 5:Absolutely.
Speaker 3:So we're wanting to talk about R32, but I thought it was important because we have listeners that are kind of in our industry, or even not in it at all or interested in it, and they want to hear more in it at all, are interested in it and they want to hear more. So maybe before we get into specifically R32, why in the world do we as the means and methods to rejecting heat energy? Why is it a refrigerant? What is a refrigerant kind of high level? And you know, why do we use that instead of some other medium?
Speaker 4:Rob, you want to grab that one.
Speaker 5:Sure, I thought you might, because you loved thermodynamics in college.
Speaker 1:Fair point Rob. Fair point.
Speaker 5:So, yeah, refrigerant is just a medium, that or a working fluid that we use to exchange heat within, typically, but not always within a vapor compression type of system, and so in HVAC we mostly use vapor compression with refrigerants, and so we take that refrigerant and the thing about a refrigerant is that it changes phase depending on what part of the cycle, the refrigeration cycle that it's in, and so when it changes phase it gives it the opportunity to absorb or reject a lot of heat, and that makes it an advantageous working fluid for moving heat throughout a system out a system.
Speaker 3:Very good, that was a good answer, Thank you. So I guess the next question is is that we have now this new refrigerant, R32. Why in the world did we change over from what the industry was using? And maybe what we should talk about is the big ones that we've seen over the years. There's been a lot in there, but the big ones have been R22, 410A and then 32. Can you kind of talk through maybe the environmental impact of why in the world we did that? And really I'd be interested in hearing kind of why is refrigerant a part of the decarbonization conversation?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I'll jump into that. And, rob, if you want to add any color, feel free. But you know he has talked about you know we started with R22 and going from R22 to 410A. The reason we did that was because of ozone depletion potential. There was a big hole in the ozone was because of ozone depletion potential. There was a big hole in the ozone and so going to refrigerants that weren't going to continue to do that to protect us from the sun and all the harmful things that the ozone protects us from. So that's why we went from R22 to 410A, because that ozone potential was much less in 410A.
Speaker 4:Now, as we're getting into what we're doing now, we're becoming more and more aware of greenhouse gases, right? So first we knew about the ozone, now we know about greenhouse gases and CO2 emissions from our refrigerant 410A. The global warming potential is just over 2000. So the refrigerants that we're getting to now they're trying to limit that through the AMAC and the EPA with refrigerants that have a global warming potential of 700 or below. To the new equipment that's coming out now, it's to try and limit the carbon emissions from refrigerants getting into the atmosphere. So when you talk about how refrigerants play into that decarbonization effort. It's really looking at the carbon emissions, both from the direct effects from it getting into the atmosphere and also how efficient it was. You know Rob talked about that vapor compression cycle. How much energy do we have to put into that equipment for it to do its job? And looking at making sure when we're using the refrigerant that we're not generating a bunch of carbon from the power that's powering that piece of equipment.
Speaker 3:So yeah, and so those, the, the HFCs, the hydrofluorocarbons they really don't break down right. They kind of they rise up into the ozone and that's what's causing it to deplete. And whereas we've moved away from that, now we have a problem with the newer refrigerant, fortune A, but from a greenhouse potential standpoint, and now we're trying to make sure we minimize that. So, sharon, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like as we get smarter as an industry, we see the things that we need to change. And that's what we're doing. We're changing to be a better steward of our environment and the folks it serves. Does that kind of sum it up?
Speaker 4:Absolutely, yep. We're trying to continue to make those changes and that progress towards, you know, being more environmentally friendly.
Speaker 3:I'd be curious, and it's okay if you guys don't know the answer to this. It seems like Europe kind of has their thing that they do, and it seems like the US kind of has their things that they do. Do you see one day that we kind of get to our standardization globally, to where we're all kind of thinking on the same sheet of music? What's your thoughts on that?
Speaker 5:Maybe I'll jump in there. I hope we can eventually all align. I think for the industry it would be a great thing to be able to all be standardized. I think, when you think about the choice of refrigerants, we've gone from natural refrigerants in the very early days to now synthetic refrigerants of different types, and oftentimes when we're changing a refrigerant, we're doing that to optimize around some different set of variables. Right? So it might be ozone depletion, potential global warming, potential efficiency capacity. Each refrigerant has properties that make it beneficial for some use case, and so as we change refrigerants, we're doing that often because we are now giving more emphasis to one of those variables that maybe previously we didn't give as much emphasis to.
Speaker 5:And globally, whether it's in Europe or Asia or in the United States, everyone has a slightly different mix of variables that they're trying to optimize around. We saw in Europe that they moved more quickly toward lower GWP fluids. They did that a number of years before the US did, and now we're sort of catching up with the activities that we have going on now. But ultimately there's other things to factor in, right? And so as you change which of those variables you prioritize, it could be that in the future. We all globally agree that on one set of variables. I don't know how optimistic I am that that's going to happen in the near future, but maybe in the distant future that comes to pass near future, but maybe in the distant future that comes to pass Very cool.
Speaker 4:So I've heard of these A2L refrigerants. What are A2L refrigerants exactly? I can jump in. We probably just go back and forth.
Speaker 4:So looking at A2L refrigerant, so ASHRAE Standard 34 classifies the safety class of a refrigerant. When we started looking at more of those low GWP refrigerants, we're starting to get a little more flammable but they created a class 2L. That means low flammability just because they are flammable, but it's on that lower scale. So a lot of us are familiar with, you know, a class three like you think, propane, isobutane and stuff that really ignites quickly, very easily. Those A2Ls is considered a low flammability refrigerant. Low toxicity would be that A, and so it's just able for us able to use a lower GWP refrigerant but understanding that there is some flammability to it, as on it is on the lower side, um so if I'm a technician, do I need to be concerned about the flammability of the refrigerant?
Speaker 3:Do I need to do you? Do I need to have different practices in place of what I would, uh, do as far as like an open flame whenever I'm soldering copper? Do y'all know kind of what that looks like?
Speaker 5:Well, you would always want to exercise the appropriate level of caution with whatever fluid that you're working with. You know, and I wouldn't suggest anyone, that an A2L has no risk. But A2Ls are, like Sharon said, on the low end of the flammability scale, so they take more energy to ignite. It takes a higher concentration of them before they can ignite and they release less energy when they do ignite, and so those factors put them on the safer end of the flammable refrigerant choices that the industry could choose. And at the end of the day, there are some changes that technicians will need to make. For example, some tools will need to be rated as suitable for use with A2Ls. The notable examples are things like your manifold gauges, your vacuum pump, your recovery machine. Those types of devices will need to be listed by.
Speaker 5:I think that, along with some common sense practices, of course, the industry's evolving. I'm sure that whatever we say today, give it a year or two there might be new guidelines out. So I don't want to make too much of a black and white statement, because we as an industry like to change and evolve and figure out what works and what doesn't work, and all get better, and that's part of the beauty of innovation and progress, but at the end of the day, it's suitable equipment and proper practices are always important, and it's just a matter of being aware and trained on what those practices are.
Speaker 3:Now the refrigerants that some folks are using that are blends. Now, correct me if I'm wrong. Are they still using some piece of R32 in that blend?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so actually 410A has quite a bit of R32 in it and when you look at the replacement for 410A those low GWP replacements there's R32 and then 454B. 454b is 60% R32. So yeah, it's been around for a long time. It's used in a lot of these blends.
Speaker 5:Yeah, the 410A is 50% R32. And then 454B is, I think. If memory serves it's just north of 68% R32.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you have the chart in front of you, sharon. I think it's something like 68%, or 69% R32.
Speaker 5:So in the past, you've been using a refrigerant that contains R32. And in the future, you're going to continue using a refrigerant that contains R32. The question is is it 100% R32, or is it R32 blended with something else to adjust the properties?
Speaker 3:Have you all found with switching over to 100% R32, are there any efficiency gains that you guys are being able to see in the equipment?
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah, that's one of the primary reasons why many people are looking at R32 as a good replacement for 410A. And again, it's about balancing those different variables, and one of the variables that's in the favor of R32 is efficiency. So it can be significantly more efficient than 410A and 454B. It sort of depends on where you're at in the operating envelope of the machine, but you can see efficiency benefits with R32. And that's one of the reasons why, when you consider the overall balance of efficiency in GWP, r32 comes out favorably.
Speaker 3:Okay, so it's more efficient. Now, with R410A, is it considered what we talked about earlier, an A2L?
Speaker 4:No a 410A is an A1, so it's considered a non-flammable refrigerant. That doesn't mean it's never flammable, but in the test conditions it's not. When we see us moving towards that A2L, we're getting you know, as Rob spoke, to making sure that we're using them safely. They are considered a low flammability but there's additional building design conditions or building design considerations. Manufacturers are UL 6335-2-40, lifting their equipment to that standard to make sure that we're able to utilize an A2L safely. But yeah, the 410A was an A1.
Speaker 5:So, yeah, there's less restrictions on how we can use that just because it's considered non-flammable considered non-flammable yeah and just to add one thing to what Sharon said both R32 and 454B, the two replacements for Fortin A, are both A2Ls, and so either refrigerant that you choose is going to be an A2L, and that's what's so different in the case of 410A is you're going from an A1, which is, as Sharon said, I think the way ASHRAE phrases. It is no flame propagation for an A1. It doesn't mean it can't combust, but it doesn't propagate a flame. I'd have to look up the specific details on what exactly their definitions are, but most of us colloquially call it non-flammable, and so they may take issue with us calling it non-flammable, but that's essentially what it is, essentially what it is.
Speaker 5:And so, anyway, when you change from an A1 to an A2L and you do now have that flammability characteristic, it's important to realize that it's the same whether you choose R32 or whether you choose R454B. In either case, they're both A2Ls and the flammability characteristics are very similar between the two. In fact, I think there's a value that ASHRAE 34 defines, called the LFL, the lower flammability limit, and it's a way of trying to quantify the flammability, and it's within just a few percent for R32 and R454B. So they're very similar in flammability characteristics.
Speaker 3:So you had said earlier that the GWP, the global warming potential for 410A, was like in the 2000 range, so switching over to R32, where are you getting at with that? What GWP is that at?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I can jump in. So when you think about GWP, I'll give you the values. I just wanted to kind of expand on your question. First, before I did that, make sure when you're looking at the GWP that you're looking at the whole picture. Because when you look at the phase down schedule and what they're trying to limit, they're looking at a CO2 equivalency, which is your GWP value times the amount of refrigerant. So you have to look at the charge that's going into the piece of equipment as well, so the capacity of that type of refrigerant.
Speaker 4:So when you look at R32, the GWP value is 77. For 454B it's 74. But what we found and it does vary based on a few you know the selections for how the equipment was designed and that sort of thing but R32, the capacity, usually you need a little bit less of it versus 454B. So when you start looking at that equivalency they're usually about the same or pretty close. But yeah, that's kind of what we're looking at is 77 and 74 for GWP values. But again, I want to make sure that those listening that you know when you're looking at the GWP, it's more than that. It's also looking at its quantity and that CO2 equivalency.
Speaker 5:Sharon, were those values you gave GWP or RCL?
Speaker 4:Apologize. You're right, that's RCL. Yes, gwp is 675 and 466. I pulled up the little sheet. I appreciate that, Rob. That would be really little sheet. I appreciate that, Rob.
Speaker 1:That would be really low and I appreciate that that would have been bad. My goodness.
Speaker 4:No, it's 675 on R32 and 466 on 454B. Thanks, Rob.
Speaker 3:You mean Sharon? You don't have all these numbers, just memorized no no.
Speaker 4:Absolutely not.
Speaker 3:I was hoping I was meeting the biggest nerd ever.
Speaker 1:She wins the prize.
Speaker 4:That's why I'm looking at my sheet.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I have a quick question.
Speaker 1:Sharon, you mentioned HVAC systems and looking at overall systems. You mentioned HVAC systems and looking at overall systems. So we have a lot of HVAC systems in the world. Are they all going to need to do something special to use products with A2L refrigerants? Do we need to redesign every single HVAC system in the world now?
Speaker 4:I don't think you're going to have to do a redesign of all the systems. I don't think you're going to have to do a redesign of all the systems. So, when you look at the, the, the manufacturers have something they need to do, and then there's ways that you apply them in buildings.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 4:So the manufacturers, when they're going through that new UL standard, there's things like they're looking at refrigerant detection sensors now, knowing that they want to make sure, if their refrigerant is coming out, that we're able to start an alarm and do mitigation measures to take care of that and make sure we're not having issues in buildings with flame propagation or fires and whatnot.
Speaker 4:So that's some of the difference you're seeing from the manufacturers is with RDS system, they're looking at how much the charge is and that sort of thing. So that's what's happening on the manufacturing side. And when you look at how they're applying it in buildings and that's looking at ASHRAE standard 15,. I spoke about the mitigation measures. Now we're looking at, well, what happens if that refrigerant gets into the building. So we're having to look at the EDVC or the effective dispersal volume charge or how much refrigerants in that space that you can have compared to its safety limits from ASHRAE. So there's a lot of going on with that, just making sure we don't have enough in one space to be able to start a flame. So you know, can it leak in that space? Will it disperse into other spaces? And then what sort of mitigation measures do we have? Do we have that frigid detection sensor? Do we have mechanical ventilation that's going to move this from one space to the next, making sure we're turning off ignition sources brushing this year there's a lot to it.
Speaker 4:But, yeah, just kind of trying to give a more of a broad brush of how things are going to change. But yeah, there's just more to think about and more to design. But I don't know I guess I wouldn't consider a complete redesign. I don't know if you would Rob, but just more consider.
Speaker 5:I think it depends on the kind of system. You know, the world of HVAC is so large and so many different ways of moving heat in and out of a building, and so, as Sharon noted, there's the OEM side, which is you need to produce a piece of equipment that meets applicable safety standards, and it may come shipped with refrigerant detection systems, for example, if it's using an A2L refrigerant and has a large enough charge, or it may require one side. But then, on the building side, there's the matter of what do you do in the case of a leak, and that's what Sharon was alluding to with some of what she was talking about, with turning on ventilation, turning off ignition sources. That's what ASHRAE 15 calls mitigation actions, and so if you're designing a system, there are certain mitigation actions that need to occur if there's a leak, and so you need to make sure that that's part of the design of the system. If you're, if you've got a small piece of equipment that doesn't have a refrigerant detection system, there may be fewer changes to think about there, and so I don't like to broad brush and say everything has to be redesigned or nothing has to be redesigned. It is going to be a matter of degrees, depending on what type of system you have. And were you using gas in the past? Do you have electric heaters or gas heaters off in the ductwork?
Speaker 5:One thing that people may not be aware of when it comes to replacing A1 equipment with A2L equipment, specifically when you get into what are called high probability systems, which are the typical kinds of systems that you're going to see in a building, like rooftop units, air handlers with DX coils, anything where the refrigerant could leak into the space. If a leak has sprung In those kinds of systems, you need to not think just about the equipment, or let me rephrase that, you need to think about the type of equipment you're installing and making sure that it is listed with appropriate standards, but you also need to think about what is downstream of that equipment in the system. So if you replace an air handler with a DX coil and that air handler used to have an A1 refrigerant in it and now it has an A2L refrigerant in it, there are devices that are connected downstream in the ductwork right, and some of those devices may not be suitable for exposure to an A2L refrigerant. And so what ASHRAE 15 says and this is really I'm sort of talking in the commercial space here. That's governed by ASHRAE 15. It's governed by ASHRAE 15.
Speaker 5:And so what ASHRAE 15 requires is that you look at some of those downstream devices and make sure that they are appropriate to be used. And it has a list of restrictions. And I won't get into all that, not only because I don't want to bore you guys talking about the minutiae, but also it's so nuanced that it depends on the kind of system and I don't want anyone to walk away with incorrect assumptions. So if push comes to shove, I just say look at the ASHRAE standard and make sure that you're not just thinking about the equipment that you're installing, but also any devices that are downstream of it the equipment that you're installing, but also any devices that are downstream of it.
Speaker 3:So every refrigerant has to have a certain amount of lubrication in it to be able to lubricate your compressors, and so you still have to have that in the refrigerant in order to lubricate the compressors with R32?.
Speaker 5:Yeah, so typically 410A systems often used POE oil and R32 and 454B use similar types of oils. If I'm not mistaken, I think 454B uses POE and R32 systems often use PVE oil. But I think that can vary depending on the equipment type. So take that with a little bit of a grain of salt. But yes, just like a 410A system, an R32 or an R454B system are going to need to have oil in the compressor to lubricate it, and typically that oil escapes the compressor and then you rely on the refrigerant to carry it back. So you want the oil in the compressor when it escapes out into the system. The refrigerant does try to carry it back into the compressor, but inevitably there's always a little bit of oil that will escape.
Speaker 3:Speaking of compressors, what kind of compression is good for R32? Is it just scroll? Could you use it and screw? What all could it be used for?
Speaker 5:Yeah, sharon do you want to take that one?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I can. So just like 410A is considered a high pressure refrigerant, R32 is also considered a high pressure refrigerant. So typically we'd only see those in scroll compressors. When you get down into a screw type, you'd be looking at 134A and there's a couple of replacements for that, like 513A, 515b, 1234ze. Those would be the replacements we're looking at when that medium pressure, if you were to switch the type of compressor technology. But yeah, so you'll typically see those on a scroll the 410A, R32, 454b.
Speaker 3:So you hit on that with the different refrigerants. So why is it that we need all of these different refrigerants out there whenever you're designing a system?
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I got this question a lot why can't we just have one refrigerant, right? Why do we have to have so many different ones? I'm sure our service techs would really appreciate just having one kind. Unfortunately, the different refrigerants behave differently to different pressures. Some like high pressure low volume, some like low pressure, high volume. So depending on your application and the type of compressor you're looking at will require a different type of refrigerant. And when you compare what I'm going to call legacy refrigerants 410A, 134a those all have those high GWP values. The EPA put limits of 700 on those. So all of our new refrigerants, all those replacements, are going to be below that value, below 700. And, yeah, they're going to be designed to work with the compressor technology at that pressure.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and just one thing to add. There is, people don't realize that refrigerants tend to follow compressor type, because the characteristics of the compressor really help dictate the characteristics of the refrigerant. So scroll compressors tend to be smaller. They're not going to move as much quantity of refrigerant through the system, but they're very happy to make a fairly high pressure differential to build up a lot of pressure, and so that works well with refrigerants like 410A, r32, etc. When you get into larger compressors like screws or centrifugals, they're a little bit better suited to moving larger quantities of refrigerant. But you start to run into some tradeoffs if you try to use them to build higher pressure, and so medium or low pressure refrigerants work better for screw and centrifugal type of compressors, and so that's why you typically see 134A or its alternatives or 123 and its alternatives used in screw and centrifugal compressors respectively.
Speaker 3:So I'm dating myself a little bit. I got into the industry whenever receipts were still kind of a popular thing and then scroll was just kind of getting out into the market and it seemed like you didn't see a lot of scrolls there for a while and it was because it seemed like the fail rate was so high with them. But now with just the advancements of technology, scroll compression has really kind of gotten up there as far as a reliability goes and you're seeing it more often and really you're seeing the industry shifting pretty hard from what was a traditional water-cooled machine with the, you know, pumps on the condenser side and cooling towers to where now people are really moving and excited about the efficiencies of air-cooled chillers because just the ease of them, you don't have the maintenance required that you would with a larger system like that. And it's been interesting to watch a lot of the industry shifting especially in smaller like process or smaller comfort cooling solutions.
Speaker 5:Yeah, absolutely. Uh, uh, scroll compressors are great. I mean, they do fantastic. They are um, they've come a long way and yeah, what more do you say? They're? They're ubiquitous in our industry.
Speaker 3:So, uh, a question that came to me whenever I was talking to someone, uh, about having this conversation today, was they had the question can you take an existing 410A system and transition it, convert it over to R32? Is that possible?
Speaker 5:to do that and in some cases again speaking sort of from a US-centric perspective there are even some restrictions in the SNAP regulations that you know that are driving toward lower GWP refrigerants. That again make it something that you can't really do once you've got a piece of equipment out in the field designed for like an A1 refrigerant. So it's again a nuanced conversation. But when you're talking about going to a different safety group of refrigerants so Fortune A was an A1 and R32 or R454B are A2Ls in those cases it's impractical. It is possible to do if you're going from an A1 to an A1. So, for example, if you had R134A and you wanted to move to 513A, there are some people offering those types of retrofits, but when it comes to changing the safety class and going from an A1 to an A2L, you really can't do it, at least as of today.
Speaker 3:Gotcha. So some I think they're myths. Some myths I think I've heard is you know why is is Daikin the only show in town using R32? I think it's kind of the first question I have.
Speaker 4:I think is kind of the first question I have. No, there's a lot of manufacturers using R32. So you'll see, you know, depending on the equipment that is using and the selections that were done, some manufacturers use 454B, some used R32. It's been used worldwide for a long time. So while it's newer in the US in its single component form, it's used quite broadly in Asia and Europe.
Speaker 4:So yeah, you see it a lot here. The thing about R32, when manufacturers were picking which refrigerant they were moving towards after 410A, is it required a little bit more redesign so that 454B conversion was a little easier? But yeah, Daikin, that that 454B conversion was a little easier. Um, but yeah, dyken obviously went that way and we see a lot of. There's quite a few other manufacturers that made that decision as well.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and there are actually some. There are some manufacturers that are using both Um and so that's kind of interesting, because it's it's really about picking the right refrigerant for the right application. Right, whether you're using 410A or 134A or any of these refrigerants, you're using them because they have properties that you're looking for, and in some cases, some manufacturers are choosing to offer both R32 and R454B, depending on the type of equipment. You know you may see R-32 in a VRF type equipment or in a mini split, but then in a split system, a separate type of split system like a residential, you might see them using 454B. So there are manufacturers using both and some have picked one or the other, but it's going to be the case that in our industry, both these refrigerants are going to continue to be used. This isn't, as I like to say, this isn't a VHS versus Betamax type of discussion. You're going to see both of these refrigerants used and both have different pros and cons that are going to keep them in the industry.
Speaker 3:Do you see, from an economic standpoint, one being more cheaply made? What do you see, as far as that's concerned, the economics of these refrigerants?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean you can get into the price of the refriger and that's going to vary depending on how you buy it and the geographic location that you're in. And that really mainly impacts you from a maintenance cost perspective. Right, if you're replacing refrigerant because you've got a leak, how much you're going to pay for the gas. But when it comes to the actual equipment itself, I think the cost of the refrigerant is maybe a secondary discussion and the primary discussion is does the equipment do what you need it to do? Does it have the efficiency characteristics, the capacity characteristics, the footprint, the refrigerant charge? You know all of these characteristics that you might care about. Does it have the characteristics that you need for your system and for your design?
Speaker 5:You know, incidentally, today, if you look at, if you were to just shop out, the price of R32 and R454B you know we've found a few, this was as of a few months ago but you might see that R32 is a little bit less expensive than R454B per pound If you're talking about buying a 30-pound cylinder, or I guess now they're 20, about 20-pound cylinders when you go to the A2Ls, but a little bit smaller quantity in those cylinders. But yeah, their 32 was a little bit less expensive than 454B last time I price checked it. But again, that's going to vary depending on where you're buying it from, and as time goes on that could change too. So it's difficult to say will it all? Will one always be less expensive than the other?
Speaker 3:yeah, I think it is living the r22 to 410 conversion. It just seems like it was a supply and demand conversation that once you know there was a a large amount of it, then all of a sudden you started seeing the pricing dropping on. I'm sure R32 is probably going to follow that same trend. So we we had talked at the very beginning of things about decarbonization and that well. Will R32 actually support the long-term decarbonization movement that we've got going on right now?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean I think it will when you look at. You know, I talked a little bit about that CO2 equivalency. It's about the charge times, it's GWP. So it's really about making sure that we're designing the equipment to be efficient so we don't have to use as much or as little as possible.
Speaker 4:Other thing you're going to see is recovery and reclamation efforts, putting an emphasis on making sure we're recycling and reusing these refrigerants, which is the industry I don't know that we've been the best at doing up until this point. It's really making sure that we're able to recycle and reuse it. But it's getting down there. The other thing we need to consider when we're looking at decarbonization is again that efficiency. So when you get into really low GWP refrigerants, do you have the efficiency as well? So you know, kind of picking those trade-offs, making sure that you're evaluating everything the equipment as a whole, the refrigerant as a whole so that if you're getting a lower efficiency but your GWP value is low, well now we're generating more carbon powering that piece of equipment. So you know, I think it has a place.
Speaker 5:but I don't know if, rob, you had anything to add there. Yeah, yeah, maybe just to build on what you were saying, sharon. You know, speaking in broad terms, the EPA, amac, is seeking to reduce over time the GWP equivalency of refrigerant that can be produced, and so, going out to 2029 or 2036, each manufacturer of refrigerant is allowed to produce less refrigerant on a GWP weighted basis. And so the question becomes how much lower do you have to go on the GWP to meet the goals that the nation has over time? And the thing is, the GWP like Sharon was saying, the GWP times the weight of refrigerant that you need in a given system ends up being very similar between R32 and R454B. So both of those refrigerants, we think, are going to rise and fall together. You know, we don't think there's going to be a case where one phases out sooner than the other, because typically the GWP of R32 is a bit higher, but you need less of it per ton of cooling that your equipment is producing. The charge quantity is typically a little less, and so when you multiply those two things together, it's very close in terms of the CO2 equivalency. So we believe they're going to rise and fall together.
Speaker 5:Now, ultimately, will the industry try to drive to some really low GWP number, like starting to get down into CO2 territory GWP of one or less than 10? Get down into CO2 territory GWP of one or less than 10. That's anybody's guess as to where the industry goes, but certainly there are trade-offs, there are pros and cons and GWP isn't the whole story, and efficiency has an awful lot to do with it, especially when you think about the state of our grid. You know our grid being partially powered by fossil fuels. The more powered you are by fossil fuels, the better efficiency gains help you in terms of reducing emissions, because each kilowatt hour of electricity that you save through better efficiency, it takes more CO2 to generate that kilowatt hour of electricity when your grid is relying on fossil fuels, and so choosing a refrigerant that's very efficient is great in the short term, and you know naturally we will progress as the grid cleans up. We'll see where we need to go as an industry, but certainly GWP isn't the whole picture.
Speaker 3:And so you've mentioned now carbon dioxide a couple of times now, so the listeners understand is carbon dioxide the base, is that one.
Speaker 5:Yeah, so GWP by definition is sort of normalized around CO22, so co2 by definition has a value of one and there are refrigerants that get pretty close to that um, so you can get to a similar gwp with some of the hfo refrigerants the next generation refrigerants, if you will, will, um, but uh, yeah, it's to varying degrees and and CO2 can also be used as a refrigerant. It's uh, today it's not as efficient when you talk about comfort cooling type of applications. So I don't know that, uh, co2 is the most sensible refrigerant for sort of normal comfort cooling, at least with the technology we have today. But uh, but certainly it does have a place in the future worth considering.
Speaker 3:Very good, you know you brought up a good point while you were talking, rob, about how you actually need less R32 to be able to for the same solution that you would have had previously with other refrigerants. That's an interesting point. I didn't know.
Speaker 5:Yeah, it can be significantly less when you compare it to like R410A. The charge quantity can be somewhere between 25% and 35% less than R410A for the same tonnage of machine than our Fortuna for the same tonnage of machine.
Speaker 3:Well, you guys have given me a lot to think about, you know, as we're kind of starting to ramp down, is there anything that we didn't hit on, kelly? Was there something that I missed that we should talk about before we call it?
Speaker 1:Actually, rob did a great job of. I had a question about the power grid still using the fossil fuels, so, rob, I covered that one. I think that, as far as we're concerned, we're good to go. But, sharon, rob, do you have anything else to add?
Speaker 4:Sharon you go first, okay, I don't think so. I know. When I talk about refrigerants, common questions I usually get are around the flammability which we talked about. You know they're hard to ignite. They travel very slowly. If they are lit, you know I use the analogy you can walk faster than the flame travels. So just to give people relativity around how flammable these are, because everyone's used to you know those very highly flammable these are because everyone's used to you know those very highly flammable, um substances, um, yeah, and then they want to know, like, are they better than our existing refrigerants? Um, so there's some. Exist additional design considerations, um, but we are seeing some efficiency gains from this. So, um, that's always good when we're reducing both our you know carbon footprints, but also you pay less in utilities if your equipment's more efficient. So who?
Speaker 3:doesn't like that.
Speaker 4:Yeah so. I guess, just talking about some of the common questions that I usually get.
Speaker 3:Well, the big gain will be is that you get more efficiency and you don't have to grow the equipment. I can remember people were like oh yeah, look, we're moving from this seer to two seers higher and the equipment's just twice the size, yep.
Speaker 5:Good idea, and that's a great point the fact that as we change refrigerants, like I said earlier, it's about balancing the variables right, and one thing we would like to get is not just better emissions but just overall better, more efficient systems. And that's why I like R32, because it does have the lower GWP, but it's also giving you a very efficient refrigerant, and so, like Sharon said, that plays into your operating cost, into spending less on electricity, and who doesn't like that? So, when you're getting a more efficient machine, that has benefits for people, and so I think that's a great point to highlight. And the other thing that I would just say is, as we transition from 410A to these other refrigerants, whether it's R32 or R454B, I just want people to take away that they're not so different between R32 and R454B. I mean, r32 is 100% R32. R454b is somewhere around 68, 69% R32.
Speaker 5:So the characteristics are pretty similar. It's just sort of getting into the minutia of what's the GWP, what are some of the other properties, but they're pretty similar. And so, whichever choice you make, just, first and foremost, buy the equipment that has the characteristics and properties that you need, whether it's efficiency, footprint, capacity, et cetera and then, if you're getting a piece of equipment that has R32 or R454B either one can be a good choice. You know, we happen to think that R32 has some properties that make it advantageous, but I would never go so far as to say that R32 is the only good refrigerant and that's the only one that you should pick. You know that's you got to pick the right refrigerant for the right application and it just so happens that R32 has a really great mix of properties that make it advantageous for a lot of people, for a lot of applications.
Speaker 3:Very good, I tell you, kelly, do you want me to uh say something to you?
Speaker 1:I, I, of course okay, good.
Speaker 3:So I am very glad that we did this podcast today, and the reason why is because two weeks ago, I bought an r32 daikon system for my house you did not.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic.
Speaker 3:I did not know that I am slowly putting it in myself, so it's taking a hot minute, but I'm glad that we had this conversation because you know this is going to be the refrigerant that's in my house where my family lives. Yeah, that's awesome. I feel very comfortable with it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic.
Speaker 3:Great to hear. Yeah Well, kelly, I feel like I've learned a lot today. How about you, I?
Speaker 1:have learned a ton specifically regarding flammability of R32. I had heard rumors that it was terribly flammable, so it's really nice to hear that it's not.
Speaker 3:Now you know, it can just be a party trick where you can outwalk it if you need to.
Speaker 1:Outwalk it. That will live forever. Sharon, I can outwalk that.
Speaker 4:And I can't outwalk it that that that will live forever, sharon I can outwalk that, and I can't outwalk much.
Speaker 1:I can't outwalk much so.
Speaker 5:Kelly, as an HVAC person, it uh, it always pleases me when someone uh uses the word ton um, you know, in an HVAC conversation. No pun intended but it's the perfect HVAC pun.
Speaker 1:Thank you, it was completely unintended, but I'm going to use it now forever and ever. I will say that if listeners want to learn more about decarbonization, they can go to wwwdykenappliedcom. Backslash decarbonization.
Speaker 5:Right, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Well, if folks like this podcast, Kelly, what should they do?
Speaker 1:They should like it, they should subscribe, they should share it with all of their friends. Ryan, that's what they should do, mm-hmm, all of their friends.
Speaker 3:Good point. Well, thank you guys so much for your time today and I hope everyone out there has a great day. Bye.
Speaker 4:Bye, bye.
Speaker 2:Bye, took a rocket past Saturn. Things don't seem to matter much to me anymore. Got lost inside a daydream, get sick of all schemes they play on their machines. Lost so many words as I got older, all schemes they play on their machines. Lost so many words as I got older. You would have thought I was a stardom and I might be a love fodder.
Speaker 2:Accidentally wrote these words down. Thought all the best of me Faded in an endless sea. But you always bring me back, catching blue eyes. Twenty years of staring at that freckle on your left shoulder. Who would've thought all I needed was to think of you To bring back the words inside? But you always bring me back. It's your blue eyes. Twenty years of staring at that freckle on your left shoulder. Who would have thought all I needed Was to think of you to bring back the words inside of me? I drove an hour to see you.
Speaker 2:Things just seemed to matter more to me anyway. Got lost in reality. No answers to cancer. We never got to talk. Lost so many friends as I got older. Wish you had the strength to hold you a little bit longer. Always meant to write these words down. Thought all the best of you Faded in an endless sea. But you always bring me back. It's in blue eyes. Twenty years of staring at that freckle on my left shoulder. Who would have thought all I needed Was to think of you to bring back the words inside of me? You always bring me back at your blue eyes. Twenty years of staring at that freckle on your left shoulder. Who would have thought all I needed Was to think of you to bring back the words inside? But you always bring me back At your blue eyes. Twenty years of staring at that freckle on your left shoulder. Who would have thought all I needed Was to think of you to bring back the songs inside of me? You were always a part of me. You were always a part of me.
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